Leaving comments here is a privilege. Many fighters read our comments and interviews. It is okay if you dislike a fighter however fighter bashing is not allowed. Keep your comments clean.

Thank you,

MMAyou.com Staff

Messive, I think you're an idiot. Everything Ken said was true. Ken has been wanting a rematch for years but Royce never wanted the match. No excuses here.

i say let em fight soo the talkin will stop

ken is a joke

LOL at "I was young and inexperienced". He was in his 30's. 33 or so. No excuses for the first fight, he knew Royce was a submission fighter and he should have known better than to take him down, fall back for a leglock making sure he lost dominant position and then proceed to give his back.

The second fight is by far the most discussed fight in MMA history. Ken came to play it safe and throw some small headbutts, Royce did also come only to survive as he didn't once open his guard during the bout. Just a bloody draw, leave it.

foo he looks like wolverine lol

he was 29 numb nuts

gaffa go watch some tuff

Ken Shamrock is right and would kill Royce in a 3rd fight.

gaffa watch the first fight again, when shamrock fell back for the leg lock royce already had his gi wrapped around ken
it was bullshit how the gracies pretty much ran the early ufc's and they'll always need their own special rules
ken for the win in a rematch

Perez Hilton ROCKS....................

I've trained with Royce and he would smash Ken like he did in the first fight.Royce second round submission

ken has stayed too long, he should have retired a long time ago. beyond that i feel that all he did the 2nd time he fought royce was stall. for him to say that he was inexperienced the first time makes me laugh. all those fights in pankration and he was inexperienced? funny how he doesn't talk about his "fight" with severn.

Bolth fighters should pretty much call it quits bolth are way to old and MMA has passed them buy .Royce should of learned that after the Hughes fights and Ken after the Rich Franklin fight. Maybe in 1998 I would of been pumped up for Krn-VS-Royce 3 but not 2008. Gary Shaw should be all over this though ?

As a old school kinda guy I would love to watch this fight! Royce By gogoplata!

Were Gi's allowed in Pankrase? To be also used as a 'weapon'?

People already knew there was something fishy about having the Gracie family involved in producing the first UFC's by the time Ken jacked up Royce's face in their second fight.

Everyone also knew that Ken never possessed great punching power for his size.


These two B level fighters have had way more attention than they ever deserved.
We don't need a third fight.

Besides, nothing could top the time when Matt Hughes totally kicked the living you know what out of Royce.

Shamrock is such a delusional idiot. Here is the first fight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5sdnJ4Al4w

As far as young and inexperienced, Shamrock was probably the most experienced grappler there after Royce.

Royce didn't wrap anything with his gi, that was a straight rear naked choke with only one hook in.

The second fight Shamrock layed and prayed the whole time and landed exactly ONE punch after the standup and it didn't even wobble Royce. 250 lbs of muscle and he couldn't even knock a 170 lbs guy down.

Shamrock needs to go away. He is the biggest loser ever in the sport. You would think the TUF series would have finally closed the lid on his idiotic self.

I would love this rematch to be Ken's final fight. It could be a good payday and a fair match.

By today's rules, Ken would have been the winner of the second fight. The "draw" is silly and unnecessary in a combat sport.

I used to look forward to any Shamrock or Royce fight. Now, no interest. Too much yapping, steroids, lopsided losses to today's fighters. Please, can you both retire? Thank you.

ken is great, I think he would beat royce if they fought a third time under Normal Rules.

there's not way this fight should be passed up. What does the fight game have to lose?? they're both old..both still train..both like to talk their game up. I don't think its a matter of who would win, it's how much money the UFC would make off of this.
I say go for it.

..and i'll be rooting for kenny, even though I don't like him, at all!

Like I said above I really could care less if this fight happens or not biut if It did I would definatly watch it and be all for it if it was a fair well fight for the bolth of them ? But you know dam well thats not going to happen bolth still think they are top MMA fighters LOL. All in all I think there is a good chance that Pro Elite,cage Rage or even Dreams will put this fight on in the near future, There is $$$ to be made of the hard core fans on this fight !!!! Ken had his chance at a big pay day with a fight with Kimbo on cbs it was sapose to be him and not James thompson in that fight but Buzz Berry put a halt to that real fast !!!

o cara e louco acabou d perder cinco lutas seguidas e ainda que lutar, pow vai se aposentar, sem contar que o cara e mal carater na primeira luta ele bateu e disse que nao tinha batido se nao fosse o royce gritar com o juiz ele ia continuar lutando esse cara e um falador falou do tito e apanhou feito cachorro...
ken se aposenta cara.

all ken shamrock proved was that a heavyweight could lay on top of a middle weight and without moving and not get submitted

Cant see how this could happen, huge weight difference

http://www.freeufc.info

Look...

The fights back in the early UFC were straight up. There were no time limits, no gloves, no rules against groin shots, head butts, and punches to the back of the head. Sure the Gracies started the UFC, but little Royce still went in there and beat those guys. Patrick Smith is the only one who lied down for him, and that's because Royce was dominating everyone and he didn't know what to do.

I think Royce vs. Ken would be a good rematch. It wouldn't be like watching Wanderlei stomp Jardine or anything, but it would be good on another level. There's a lot of history involved, and they are two technically sound fighters. I mean, I know that Royce vs. Sakuraba fight was controversial, but that was a sweet technical fight. They weren't throwing bombs at each other, but they were using technique, and I love watching that.

I say get the fight signed. It may be the only fight left for these two. Who else would/should they fight?

Yeah royce did use his gi, he pulled one arm through it and choked ken with it using his other hand. A pretty sneaky move I think

This is a Completely useless fight. They arent the same weight and they are not relevant to the sport. Just retire guys youve embarassed yourselves enough. Royce with the roids and Ken just by continually taking beatings. Just stop already. Have a challenge fight in the gym or something, just dont expect people to pay for this.

Unfortunately, people probably would pay to watch it. It has enough selling points, and it's been a garbage match for years. I would pay to see it, if only for nostalgic purposes.

For the record, I think Royce would pull it out. Except for the Hughes fight, Royce has shown he's capable of at least playing good defense. He fought off Sakuraba for 90 minutes during the first match. For the first four rounds, Royce was doing great. Sakuraba did not pound him for the entire fight. Thew last round was pretty bad, mostly because Royce couldn't use his left leg anymore due to the repeated kicks Sakuraba gave him.

Ken, on the other hand, has proven to be timid, with really bad cardio. Sure he hung with Tito that first time, but he did the usual hang on for dear life move. When Ken beat Kimo in more recent years, he landed a lucky kneee and seemed surprised himself that Kimo took it so bad. Ken would probably be an animal for the first round and part of the second round, but he would never last.

I think between the two, Royce has improved the most over the years. He keeps a more open mind and hasn't made a fool of himself with his mouth. Yes, he comes off as arrogant, but like Matt Serra said, how else should a fighter talk? Should Royce go around saying, "you know what, MMA has passed me by and nobody should pay to watch me fight?" That wouldn't be a good career move. Ken looks like the court jester of MMA because he constantly uses his WWE persona in a real fighting situation. He is shamelessly trying to sell tickets and just gets pounded all of the time.

Anyway... as far as the gi choke being sneaky...? There were no rules back then, only no eye gouges and biting, and apparently no wrestling shoes, although Severn wore them in UFC 4. Ken claims he was told not to wear them. In addition, gi chokes are one of the staples of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I didn't take it for a long time, but I took it for long enough to learn some basic positioning, arm bars, chokes, and choke philosophy. It was Martial Art vs. Martial, Art back then... style vs. style. Those guys could have researched BJJ if they wanted to, or Japanese Jiu-Jitsu.

The excuses are so old. The Gracies started the UFC to advertise Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, but Royce still had to go in there and fight those guys. Anyone who quetsions Royce's statsu as a champion should go watch the Kimo fight or the Severn fight. Ask Jim Brown if Royce is a champion. I think he knows something about being a great competitor. Just because there a stronger guys now who have great ground skills and takedown defense does not mean Royce is a bum. In the beginning there was Royce.

It's like saying Chuck Berry wasn't any good because Hendrix was incredbile. Chuck was still good, and he invented the electric guitar solo in rock 'n' roll in the 50s. Without him, there is no Hendrix. I think of Royce the same way, but in regards to MMA.

With all the great Jazz that was out there, Chuck Berry wasn't that good, but he was hyped as if he were. He got caught filming a women's toilet so in that sense I can see the comparison between Chuck Berry and Royce Gracie is apt.

If the Gracie controlled UFC's were really legit, open competitions, Marco Ruas would have fought Royce in UFC 1, Royce would have been beaten badly, and no one would be calling Royce great today.

All I'm saying is maybe Royce wasn't really the world's best fighter back then. Obviously there was an entire culture of Japanese and Brazilians who were fighting vale-tudo fights and what not. I'm just saying that he was great for beating those guys the way he did. I stand by it too. His wins turned the popular world of fighting upside down, and now you know who Marco Ruas is.

I think your somparison of Chuck Berry not being great compared to Les Paul and Django Reinhart is fair. But, those guys didn't play rock 'n' roll, and Chuck did. Nobody with a brain is saying Royce was ever the best fighter in the world. I'm just saying he fought like a champion back then because he won those fights. He beat people who didn't know about a ground game, but they were good in their respective arts. Besides, did Ruas knwo Jiu-Jitsu back then? If so, that explains why they didn't wnat him there. It wasn't about Royce being the best, because he obviously was not even the best in the family, it was about Jiu-Jitsu. They wanted to show people it is effective, because they wanted to build their family business. That sounds like a good deal to me. Skinny Royce went out and beat a bunch of guys, and they get to spend their life teaching people an art form that was embraced and modified by their father. I don't understand why peopel knock them for that.

All I know is this fight is making for talk be it good or bad and that means business for a promotion, I am 90% sure one of the Japaneese orgs eather Dream or World Victory Road will put this fight on within the next 12 months if the hard core fans keep talking about it and want to see it, I agree with the poster above
ratherbpickin I think Royce takes this fight maybe even pretty easy ? Don't get me worng Royce has not looked not so great the last few years and the Roids were a huge blow to his Reputation on the ohter hand Ken has looked like total shit the last 4 years ! He has the strength and chin of a 10 year old girl it seems now. I mean when Buzz Berry schools you its time to call it quits !!! Ken ius proably kicking himself in the ass for that loss if he beat Buzz it would of set up 2 huge pay day fights with Kimbo and his brother Frank. Bolth would destroy him now. So all that aside this is the only fight that makes any sence for Ken and really Royce also? For Royce I can see another fight also and that is Royce-VS-Sakuraba 3

Everyone forgets shamrock would not have had the career he had, if it wasn't for Royce and the rest of the Gracies. To give credit where credit is due, the Gracies came up with the concept of the UFC, and it was marketing genius. You paid for the Pay Per View, and it was a living commercial for Gracie Jiu Jitsu. That my friends is the American way! Capitalism at it's finest! Create a need, and charge people to fill the need. The Gracies only got out of it when the concept started to change into the Sport of MMA. The initial concept was to pit style against style to prove the efficiency of Jiu Jitsu, with a smaller average looking guy beating up bigger stronger opponents the point was proven. If you have no understanding of Jiu Jitsu, you will not make it in MMA. It almost has to be part of your game, even if it is just to be able to defend against it. Point proven... I would like to see the re-match though...

The Gracies got out because they lost their Mystique.
Much like the 3-Card Monte hustler, time caught up with them. It's no surprise that there are no Gracies in the top 10 in any weight class in MMA today.
Sure they have schools and they pick out the most talented students that they can hype and take credit for their success, but these students would excell without them.
The initial concept of pitting style against style is code for the fighters getting directives on what they can and can't do in the so called no holds barred fights. "You are wrestling, so you must use wresting, and you are a 50 year old boxer, so you will fight Royce and represent boxing so we can say how great GJJ is, and you will wear a pony tail so Royce can grab on to when he gets in trouble, by the way, if you knee to the head, it's a felony in this state and you could get arrested."
The first UFC's were cheesey. Tournaments with agendas are always cheesey.

Hmm.... It sounds like you weren't around back then. People were trained in their styles back then, therefore they relied on their styles to win/ Why would they do anything else?

LIke I said, I don't doubt that the Gracies knew they would beat all of those people, regardless of whether Royce or Rickson was in their, but theye were fights. Peopel were getting their teeth kicked in and it didn't matter. There were knees and hundreds of punches and broken ankkles. Do you think half of the fighters today would fight if they risked getting a broken arm or ankle? As a matter of fact, the Gracies are the only ones who seem willing to risk it all to win. Helio, Royler, Renzo, and Royce had broken limbs in fights.

I agree that the Gracies aren't putting out top fighters today, except for 2007's TUF winner (Caesar Gracie - no gi specialist). You still can't take away the way they popularized this kind of foghting in America. It was Rorian's idea to get it started here, although it wasn't too original since he simply transplanted it from Brazil.

I give the Gracies all the credit in the world for being great enough to beat all of those opponents in the early days, making a living doing what they love, and for making MMA so popular. Without the Gracies, there is no Dana White. Without Dana White, there is no modern day MMA in America.

There would still be MMA in America without the Gracies. The Gracie branding and marketing machine is fading, inspite of all their efforts to perpetuate the myths.
Today, Fedor Emelianenko is the best MMA fighter in the world. He has a Sambo and Judo background. He is so much better than any Gracie it's not even funny. He'd still be the great fighter that he is if no Gracie were ever born.
The Gracies can take a seat next to Jean-Claude Van Damme now, there time is up.

Tran,

You obviously didn't read my posts. If you had, you'd know that I never said the Gracies were dominating MMA today. I said that they are responsible for introducing the concept to America. I also said that Dana White is responsible for the popularity of MMA today. However, Dana White was involved in the deal When Rorion Gracie decided to sell the UFC. He expanded what the Gracies built. He made it bigger and momre popular, but you can't deny that the Gracies introduced MMA to America.

The fact that MMA existed for so long in other countries before it existed in America is irrelevant. The Gracies introduced it to America, and for that we owe them some thanks. They also successfully showed the effectiveness of Jiu-Jitsu. Were they fighting people like Fedor? No. But, I'd argue that you wouldn't even know who Fedos is if it hadn't been for the UFC, and that was created and marketed by Rorion Gracie and his partners.

I never said that you said the Gracies were dominating MMA today.

"Hmmm..." -- "You obvioulsy didn't" -- "I'd argue that you wouldn't even know"

It's your tone. It's all wrong.

Then what did you mean when you said the Gracies can take their seat next to Van Damme? He's a joke, and so you are saying they are jokes too. You took a conversation about the early UFC and turned it into a conversation about modern MMA. Do you even know how the UFC started? Were you alive back then? Are you old enough to know that there was a time when the majority of Americans didn't even know there was such a thing as Vale Tudo?

You referenced Fedor being so dominant, which he obviously is. Would any Gracies give him a good fitht? Probably not. It's all about the athlete today, and then it's about the technique. Unfortunatley, it's also about the rules. One kick in the nuts would keep most of the current UFC guys down, and they wouldn't know how to defend it. Fedor probably would, but he's an exception. He's a freak.

I'm not talking about who is good today and who is not. I'm talking about the beginnings of MMA in America. I'm talking about how the ball started rolling because fo what the Gracies did back then. It rolls because of Dana White now, who makes his living doing something the Gracies originally marketed. You are talking about why the Gracies don't matter. That's not even the converstaion.

You'd argue that I don't know? I know just as much as the next fan and martial artist. I watch all there is to watch. I train when I can. I read abotu the fighters. I've seen the evolution of MMA first hand. Unless you are a UFC, WEC, Dynamite, or former PRIDE fighter or trainer, you don't know anything more than I do about MMA. You do, however, know how to miss the point.

What's the disconnect here? I can't figure out your use of quotation marks anyway. Sometimes you are quoting me and sometimes you are quoting yourself. Yous ay my tone is all wrong. I say you entered a conversation and stopped the stream of thought to say something ignorant about how modern MMA is this or that. You just want to debunk something people here are interested in discussing, and that sucks. Please stop being a troll and get out of this thread.

The discussion isn't just about the early UFCs, it includes, among other things, the Gracies not fighting in the UFC after the second fight with Ken (that is, until UFC60 where Matt Hughes really did beat Royce in every aspect of the fight; It was like watching an episode of Myth Busters).


Ken Shamrock: "The second time I beat him in every aspect of the fight; in fact his corner had to carry him out. Fans have been calling for a rematch ever since. After this particular fight Royce left the UFC. As a matter of fact I ran the entire Gracie family out of the UFC...."

There could be a hint of truth to what he said. Ken learned how defend against Royce, maybe not as well as say Dan Henderson did when he dominated Renzo Gracie in Pride and then knocked him out, but Ken still managed to mess up Royce's face pretty good, and Ken left the fight pretty much unscathed.

Now, could Royce even take a fight in the US after testing positive for steroids in his last fight without having to go to some board and submit a request to be reinstated or something, I don't know.

After seeing Ken's last few fights, Robert Berry, the Ortiz beatings and Royce's last few fights, the Sakuraba 2 sham where Royce tested positive for steroids, the beating from Matt Hughes, or the 145 pound Hideo Tokoro embarassment, these guys are just too old.

I apologize for getting worked up in my earlier post. It was pointless.

I agree that it is not a matchup like St. Pierre vs. Silva, or something like that. It's a nostalgia matchup between two guys for whom many people feel good about due to the history of MMA in America. As I said above, it can also be called a "garbage match."

I also think that the Gracies got out of the UFC one year too late. If Royce had resigned after beating Severn, the Gracie's would have enjoyed even more success that would probably follow them to this day. However, their decision to keep competing and their efforts to evolve with modern MMA have worked against their marketing scheme. Maybe Rickson would have been able to make the transition if he were younger, as he seems like the most gifted athlete in the family, but that's heresay.

I will always maintain, however, that the Gracies deserve our respect because they were the people who got the ball rolling, in America. I think there is appeal for a Ken/Royce rematch because they are two old-school guys. It's also the one of the only matchups left for both of them. They would be crazy to do anything except a nostalgia match.

Any updates on this?

Updates?

Updates?

updates?